Jovon Perry is Director of Economic Assistance and Employment Supports Division in the Child and Family Services Administration for the Minnesota Department of Human Services. Host Dr. Sherri Killins Stewart talks with Jovon about how she’s received and responded to concrete feedback from families about how they can better access state services. Plus, the importance of being generous with other leaders who are willing to build towards equity in early childhood systems.
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Special thanks to Dr. Aisha Ray, Michelle Stover Wright, The Equity Leaders Action Network (ELAN), and state leaders working in early childhood systems for their thought partnership.
Dr. Sherri Killins Stewart
Welcome to Critical Connections, Leading for Equity, a podcast of the BUILD Initiative. I'm Dr. Sherri Killins Stewart. I am the Director of State Systems Alignment and Integration and Co-Director of State Services. This series focuses on how state leaders have used their role, responsibilities, and influence to intentionally increase opportunity and remove barriers for children and families. You will hear about tangible ways leaders are centering the perspectives of Black, Native American, Latino and Latina, and other populations marginalized by the programs and services within the early childhood system.Leaders are collaborating across state, regional, and local departments, and agencies to support the well-being of families and children. We don't present as experts, rather participants on a journey with you. I hope you will come as a learner, seeking to take action.
Today, we're talking to Jovon Perry. Jovon is the Director of Economic Assistance and Employment Supports Division in the Children and Family Services Administration for the Minnesota Department of Human Services. She oversees economic assistance programs, including the Minnesota Family Investment, Diversionary Work Program, Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, Office of Refugee and Resettlement programs for refugees. Jovon leads her division's work in promoting the-sufficiency of families and individuals by delivering high-quality, accessible economic supports for Minnesotans in need. She is an adaptive leader who welcomes working innovatively with diverse groups to address social issues. This personal aim is realized as a champion and leader within the 2Gen Policy and Whole Family Systems Network. Previously, Perry worked with NorthPoint Health & Wellness, Inc. and the Pillsbury United Communities. Jovon has a Master's of Public Affairs from the University of Minnesota and a Bachelor's of Science in Legal Studies from Kaplan University.
She has also been active in volunteering with Minnesota organizations, including Pillsbury United Communities, Hope Academy, Greater Twin Cities United Way, and Feed My Starving Children. Jovon joins us today to talk about the work she's done in her division to increase opportunities for families and children in Minnesota. Welcome, Jovon. Thank you so much for being here.
Jovon Perry: Oh, thanks for having me.
Killins Stewart:
Really, really looking forward to this conversation and you being here with us today. I always want to start with why, leaders, what drives them, what's their why? So, before we dive into our conversation about your work in Minnesota, can you share with me your why for doing the work you're doing, especially that work that's centered on Black and Indigenous or Native American or Latino or Latina marginalized populations by our systems?
Perry:
Yes, certainly. The first why is I come from the communities that we serve, specifically African American and Indigenous. My family background is African American, my great-grandfather was both African American and Indigenous. So, the communities that we're serving, the public services that we are providing, I have firsthand personal experience with standing in line at the county lines and knowing what that frustration feels like. Also, experiencing telling my story over and over again, multiple times, I know what that feels like, and that sense of just being overwhelmed and then trying to muster up enough dignity, while trying to convince someone that you are worthy of help, I know what that feels like. I also know what it feels like to have a community that is trying to strive for better. I also know what it feels like to rise above that and to work with our systems to make things much easier for the people that we serve, so that's my why.
My interest in family, specifically, and Whole Family Systems and that sort of work is really because I'm a mother, I have children. I also understand what it feels like to have a family that is experiencing multiple barriers and trying to figure out a path forward. So, I want a better life and experience for my own children and my own family, and I want that for the residents of Minnesota.
Killins Stewart:
Thank you so much for sharing, and especially sharing your story. These are trying times. You can't turn on the news or read the newspaper without seeing or hearing something that could bring us down, so what keeps you going?
Perry:
I'd say the hope that families have when you're eye-to-eye and that sense of hope and accomplishment when they reach their goals, and when you had some small part to play in that and supporting them to get there. Also, I love the collaboration and the sense of co-creative energy that's produced when leaders want to work together, when there's a sense that change is possible, when we can make any sort of movement on equity. That energizes me and lets me know that this work is not in vain, that it's important work to do and that we should keep at it.
Killins Stewart:
I love it when you say eyeball-to-eyeball, because there's so many leaders that really aren't face-to-face, and that brings to the next question, understanding the root causes, what the real problem is, and using data to really plan, decide, and monitor. How has your work been able to center Black, Native American, Latino or Latina, or other populations, and can you give a recent example from your work where you've used that data and information to really tailor it so that specific families get a better benefit and outcome?
Perry:
Well, within my area of economic assistance and employment supports, we are looking a lot at cash and food benefits. When I first got into the position, I wanted us to begin looking directly at disparities and not shying away from them or being scared to face them directly. So, really asking our research and evaluation staff and all of our policy staff to begin looking directly at what is it that our data is saying? How effective or ineffective are we at meeting outcomes? What does it look like to disaggregate the data that we're seeing, as well, so that we know which communities are being left behind where and inequities are occurring and persistent? And then utilizing that information to share across, not being afraid to share with our fellow state agencies, the communities that we're serving, counties, tribes, all stakeholders involved, where we're failing, so that we can collectively work together.
We've done a lot of work around producing specific equity briefs on our program areas and how we're doing on those, holding ourselves accountable when we're not meeting outcome measures, getting away from just outputs at the state. We've done a lot of that, of just sharing output information and moving from outputs to, really, where we want to go. I'd also say we've been dabbling more with more innovative tools like Tableau, creating dashboards so that the public can see where we are. And then, also, family voice, beneficiary and participant voice, going directly to families to say, "This is what we think we're doing. How does that actually feel? In being a recipient of those services and those resources, are they actually meeting the need or not?" And then really deeply listening and going back to see where are policy changes, where can we move things, and just letting our senior leadership also know what we're hearing directly, bringing that voice into meet with legislators or wherever we can, using both qualitative and quantitative data to push equity forward and to really work towards effectiveness instead of efficiency.
Killins Stewart:
It's so powerful. You're right there where I am, our work is really grounded in the voice of families, and so how did you get you and your team ready to be listeners first, and then create strategies which are responsive to what you heard? I don't hear you talking about a single program, but that lead to the wellbeing of children and families, even your efforts to reach out to others. So, how did you get your team ready to really listen and then be responsive?
Perry:
One, I think it's really important to utilize a common framework and a common language. Our team was really fortunate to all, and I think most people that are working in the public sector start off, anyway, well-meaning and with good intention, and so I think it was tying into that good intention to do good work, and then solidifying that with a common framework for what does it mean for all families to thrive? What does it mean for all families to do well? No matter who you are, what your family makeup is, race, creed, whatever it is, what are the things that you need? Having some common language around that and then working towards that goal, what gets in the way of our systems, our policies and practices, our funding streams, how we contract, all those different things, what gets in the way of us really being able to provide that sort of support and care to families directly?
Building that up, giving a strong vision to inspire others to do that same work, realizing that we can't necessarily do it alone, but knowing what is the work that each of us are doing in our space as a leader and what role do we play in getting closer to realizing that framework? So, for us, it was the 2Gen framework and the 2Gen gears from Ascend that really helped us to center on what are the things that we want to make sure a family has access to in order to thrive?
Killins Stewart:
Do you have a specific example of a policy or a practice that you modified to ensure you were reaching the Native American or Black or immigrant population?
Perry:
Yes. In our Whole Family Systems work, our 2Gen work, we are working directly with families, with counties, with tribes, community organizations, and hearing from them. So, one of the things that we heard, that I'll provide as an example, was in our TANF program, that we call lovingly Minnesota Family Investment program here in Minnesota, we were hearing that within that program that is has really strict requirements around employment services and work participation rates that must be met by states in order to continue receiving a monthly benefit. So, our families were telling us that everything, all of the requirements that they must adhere to are all through hard copy. It requires them coming into a county office, sometimes that can be multiple, transportation barriers, childcare barriers, all those sorts of things, to continuously just receive benefit.
They asked us, "Why can't it be simpler? Why can't we use modern technology? It doesn't make sense that I can apply for a loan or something online, but I can't connect with my county worker or my employment service worker online." And so, we thought about that and we created an app that we call Workforce One Connect across all of our employment services and workforce development programs within the Department of Human Services and then also, the Department of Employment and Economic Development. This app allows for two-way communication, it allows for texts to go back and forth, it allows for you to upload and download documents. It allows for shared communication across multiple workers. It also allows for dual enrollment across employment service programs. So, that's one example of just how we've taken an idea, then piloted it, then expanded it. Now, it's statewide across the state, in order to support the needs of families directly.
Killins Stewart:
That's so powerful. You went from listening to, "I can do my banking on my phone, but I can't talk to my county worker," to saying, "Okay, let's take that on, pilot it, and then figure out how to make it statewide," which is so critical, because so many people get stuck in the pilot, but you figured out how to do that. You've mentioned a couple times that this isn't work that you can do alone. You started very early talking about reaching out to other partners and really being transparent yourself in sharing your data. When you listen to families, a lot of what you hear won't be what's in the programs and services and initiatives that you're responsible for, so you've got to have those partners. What are the opportunities for those partnerships in your work and what are the challenges to that collaboration?
Perry:
Well, the opportunities are vast and wide. I think it's just up to if leaders at the time see themselves in those opportunities. Being willing to adapt, I think is the biggest challenge, really. This work calls for change, adaption is change, and that work is hard, but necessary. Human nature and our state systems, they favor the familiar and the status quo and uniformity, and so I think it's the willingness to constantly step into that adaptive space and do that with leaders. I think that it's really important to do that no matter where a leader is. If there's other leaders that are willing to do just a little bit in their space, baby steps in their space, meeting them where they are, especially if they are providing direct services, they are a major stakeholder in the system, meeting them where they are, because those small, incremental changes can give way and momentum to larger changes, and those changes really add up and make a difference.
I think also just trusting that change is possible and using that inspiration to carry you forward. A couple of wins goes a long way, especially for leaders that are in state government, where progressive change is slow-moving sometimes. So, just to get a little bit forward momentum can be enough inspiration to continue that work forward. We talk a lot about, again, centering back on frameworks as our common place for how we come together, common framework for equity, common framework for how we want to serve families and what all families need gives us the foundation for how to build forward so that we're not spinning on where to start, and is that my place or your place or who's funding? It helps to bring folks together, leaders together, in multiple different spaces, and it is inclusive of all leaders, as well, in different spaces so that we can see ourselves in the co-creative process. I'd also say that the networking was really important for making sure that there is space to learn from where you're going.
Killins Stewart:
You bought up networks and I think that's important. I was a previous commissioner in a similar role as you and it could be very lonely, and so what do you do to keep your own network? Because as you said, this works if you're with people who are willing to risk, who are willing to share, who willing to come to the table, but how do you keep building that network, both with people in state government, but also with communities where you may not have a relationship and you have to go in with fresh eyes and fresh ears to understand? How do you keep that network building?
Perry:
Oh, really, by open communication, continuously sharing what you are working on. It calls for being generous, generous with your time, generous with the work that you're doing. The intent is not to try to be the lone, heroic leader, but to share everything that you're doing, so that you are building upon those existing relationships, and also sharing what you're learning as you go, calling people repeatedly into the space. I think it's also important how you show up in this space, coming to this space of relationship, as much as you can, sharing power, recognizing, as well, the power that you have as a leader, and sharing how you intend to utilize that power is really important in continually building those relationships. Understanding where others want to go, what their why is, is really important, too, as well.
Killins Stewart:
You pointed out what I'm always saying, Jovon, that as early childhood systems leaders, that we, I say reaching up, I love your term generous, we have to be generous with our time. But often, we go to the table expecting to get something back before we give. Early childhood work, I really feel we have to give a whole lot, sometimes before we get, but that's that platform for building that network, for building those relationships, so I love your term be generous as you go into these relationships.
Killins Stewart:
There may be state leaders who are either at the beginning of thinking about how do you reach African American, Black, Latina, Latino, Native American, or Indigenous populations, but not really seeing their way forward in creating opportunity or removing barriers or distributing resources in a new way, because sometimes the way we've done it hasn't worked. So, what advice do you give to them if they're just starting? I'm leaving space for not just new in state government, because that's one kind of problem, but you could have been in state government the last 20 years, but are now experiencing a new awakening that you need to respond to, so what's your advice?
Perry:
My advice is to first, start from a place of a good understanding of what all families need to thrive. So, starting from that place and then realizing that the context for which that intervention or service or resource is provided needs to start from a cultural and local context, a community context. It's not enough to have that understanding of what all families need to thrive, it's also understanding what are the populations that you are actually serving? And then once you understand that, going to those communities, talking to people, talking to the families and the stakeholders that are involved, and actually serving those families to understand the context in which they'd like to receive them. So, what I mean by that is social capital is something that all families need to thrive, but social capital for tribal governments looks very, very different than it would for an African American community.
Health and wellbeing is something that all families need to thrive. Those are two factors that we need to center on and know and understand, but addressing the health, let's say, mental, chemical, and behavioral health for an Indigenous group of people looks very, very different than it would for Hmong community. So, understanding those differences in context around cultural differences, community differences are really going to help you become a better leader of services and system changes that need to be made in order to effectively support the communities that you want to support. I'd also just say, start somewhere. A lot of leaders get hung up, especially those, like you said, Sherri, that have been in the work for a very, very long time, they get hung up on the perfect program or the perfect pilot or the perfect situation that is very, very safe, or trying to meet with every single person in the state before they actually make a move.
You can't be afraid to take a risk or to fail. Fail forward, preferably, but it's important to take risks and to do that with others. As you're talking about the work that you'd like to do, try something and do it in the context of being able to learn and grow from it, so that you can improve it as you go. This isn't a one and done thing, but it's something that we're going to continuously improve upon and grow. That's how you grow as a leader. So, I would suggest that as a beginning place for folks, just start. Come with that common language and understanding of what all families need, find out which communities you're actually serving, learn about those communities, talk to them directly, and then begin, do something.
Killins Stewart:
Love it. Love it, Jovon. You know we are on the same page about that. You just have to begin and you have to begin with listening, listening first and listening with others. You also added that this isn't solo work, you've got to bring in your friends and colleagues. Do you want to tell the story about we have one system that's benefits and then we have unemployment? When you were talking, I was thinking about your examples, like if you're unemployed, you get a check and you buy groceries or health or whatever, but if you need food or childcare or income, you've got to stand in three different lines.
Perry:
A great challenge exists in Minnesota, it's called the Minnesota Paradox. What this means, basically, is that Minnesota consistently tops national records as a great state to live in and a great state to raise a family. We have great schools, we have a strong healthcare system, and we have a good, available housing stock. We also have, of course, what we call Minnesota nice, in air quotes, culture. But for Black and Indigenous people, their lived experience as residents of the state of Minnesota is quite different, very different. For those communities, we have deep and persistent disparities that exist in health, in education attainment, in employment, economic assets, home ownership. The Paradox also shows up in the administration of our public service programs. So, in our TANIF program, the population, by large, is made up of women and disproportionately, women of color are represented compared to our state population of people of color.
This group represents four key industries: the hotel/restaurant industry, our retail industry, low-wage healthcare jobs, and temp agencies. These industries have the highest turnover of workers, the most part-time jobs, the most jobs without benefits, and those working in these industries are least likely to receive unemployment insurance benefits. These industries also dominate the use of SNAP and childcare and represent the disproportionate amount of BIPOC households in child welfare. Now, in comparison, populations that make up the unemployment insurance industry are, by large, white males. There is no stigma attached to reaching out for help or receiving services from this program as exist in our TANF program. Our workforce development system is robust across the state, with rising to the occasion to get these workers, that are on unemployment insurance, back to work. Their access to these resources and services is streamlined and simplified with new technology and applications available online and through mobile devices. Minnesota has a great deal of work to do to realize equity within the public service delivery system.
Killins Stewart:
So, last question, what is something that you really see on the horizon that's hopeful? In this world where we see a lot that doesn't feel right, what are you hopeful about? What do you see in the horizon?
Perry:
I am really hopeful in wanting to be a part of the creation of equitable and culturally relevant continuums of care. So, services that really lead toward wellbeing for families, that create a bridge for families, that have on-ramps and off-ramps, but are not leading to benefit cliffs, that can meet a family where they are and help them to bridge their process through life, as defined and designed by them, by the families themselves. I think that's really, really important, and I don't think that that exists right now. We have a lot of different services and programs that meet specific needs and once that need is met, then we rip those services away and they create benefits cliffs that then set them way back, and then they're either at the beginning or it's uprooted some other new crisis within their lives. So, I would love to be able to be a part of the creation of some sort of continuous opportunity for folks to be able to keep moving forward in their progression in life.
Killins Stewart:
Jovon, thank you so much for spending time, I really appreciate it. I think your stories and your lived experience and the work that you're doing in the state and continue to do is adding value for lots of people that you don't get to see, so really appreciate all you're doing for children and families.
Perry: Oh, thanks for having me.
Killins Stewart:
I want to thank all of you for joining us. If you've gained insight from today's episode, let us know by leaving a comment or giving us a rating or sharing it with your colleagues. Critical Connections Leading for Equity is a podcast of the BUILD Initiative. It's produced by LWC Studios. Producers are Kandice Cole, Paulina Velasco. BUILD Initiative partners with state leaders to promote equitable, high-quality early childhood and family serving systems that result in thriving and learning. To learn more about BUILD's work, visit our website at buildinitiative.org. I'm Sherri Killins Stewart, thank you for listening.
CITATION:
Killins Stewart, Sherri, host. “Improving Access to Services by Listening to Families in Minnesota.” Critical Connections, BUILD Initiative, November 1, 2022, www.buildinitiative.org.