As director of equity and inclusion at the Early Care and Learning Council in New York, Fannie Glover is constantly reminding her team to prioritize authentic relationships with families and their communities. Host Dr. Sherri Killins Stewart asks Fannie to share how she leads for equity in her day-to-day, and how she stays the course in the long-term.
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Special thanks to Dr. Aisha Ray, Michelle Stover Wright, The Equity Leaders Action Network (ELAN), and state leaders working in early childhood systems for their thought partnership.
Sherri Killins Stewart:
Welcome to Critical Connections: Leading for Equity, a podcast of the Build Initiative. I'm Dr. Sherri Killins Stewart. I’m the director of state systems alignment and integration – and co-director of state services. This series focuses on how state leaders have used their roles, responsibilities and influence to intentionally increase opportunity and remove barriers for children and families. You will hear about tangible ways leaders are centering the perspectives of Black, Native American, Latino and Latina, and other populations marginalized by the programs and services within the early childhood system. Leaders are collaborating across state, regional, and local departments and agencies to support the wellbeing of families and children. We don't present as experts. Rather, participants on a journey with you. I hope you will come as a learner seeking to take action.
Today, we're talking to Fannie Glover, the director of equity and inclusion at the Early Care and Learning Council in New York. The Early Care and Learning Council is a statewide membership organization that represents 35 Child Care Resource & Referral programs, also known as CCR&Rs. They cover all 62 counties in New York state.
Fannie has more than 15 years of experience in human resources and holds a degree in organizational development. She is also a trained facilitator for the Anti-Defamation League, an organization designed to build bridges of communication, understanding and respect among diverse groups. She is also an Equity Leaders Action Network fellow, and was elected to the Child Care Aware of America board of directors in 2020.
In her work at the Early Care and Learning Council, Fannie's DEI efforts have included conducting monthly learning cafes, creating a statewide multicultural work group, organizing an equity conference and convening a community practice of CCR&R leaders to shift policy and practice for diverse communities in New York state. Fannie joins us today to talk about our leadership journey and how leading for equity has impacted New York state's early childhood system.
Killins Stewart: Welcome Fannie to the podcast.
Fannie Glover: Thank you so much, Sherri. Thank you for having me.
Killins Stewart: Thank you so much for joining us today, to talk about your intentional actions, to support the wellbeing of young children, families, and communities. Fannie, you know that I always want to start with why. Why we do something is as important as what we do. So before we dive into our conversation about your work in New York, can you share why you're doing the work to increase wellbeing for Black Native American, Latina, Latino, or other marginalized populations? What brought you to this work and what keeps you going?
Glover: Absolutely. What a delight to share? I've been in the DEI space probably for over 20 years. I was primarily addressing adults in the workplace. However, it wasn't until 2015 at a bill Equity Leaders Action Network fellowship that my eyes were really open to what was happening to my Black and brown children all around me. I didn't know what I didn't know, and once I did, I wanted to do something. You see, the project that I decided to focus on was on expulsion and suspension of Black and brown children from birth to five.
Glover: Based on the research that I found, inclusive of Dr. Walter Gilliam of Yale, I discovered that our Black and brown children, especially the little boys were being expelled at an alarming rate, more than three and a half times than their white peers, even more than K through 12. One of our sister agencies within the state conducted an informal survey and discovered that our numbers in New York were comparable to those at the national level. What keeps me engaged in this work? I believe every child has a right to appropriate learning opportunities. I'm a grandmother of a seven year old, who is Black and Native American, and I can't imagine him having his education interrupted because of the color of his skin. But those are the two main reasons that I stay engaged in this work.
Killins Stewart: That's so exciting, Fannie, to hear how it's both centered in your work and your research and data, because we want to understand the root causes, but it's also centered in your personal experience. Can you talk about how you understand the root causes? You've centered your work, your grandson is both Black and Native American, take those populations or another. And give us an example of how you get information to make decisions about tailoring your work for a specific population.
Glover: I ask the communities that I want information from. As a matter of fact, I've asked my grandson's mother about some of the impacts that she's had within her community. And I have gone to other communities and asked them what is happening as far as your educational experience. When I started hearing that they weren't saying words like expulsion or suspension, but they were using terms like, "Oh, the provider asked me to come pick up my child again today,” or comments were made such as, “Maybe this isn't the best program for your child." All of these things were disguised as “I am helping you,” but in actuality, it was, “I'm kicking your kid out.”
Glover: And what we've seen from research that children who start being expelled or suspended in those earlier years, usually they end up dropping out of high school into the criminal justice system, especially our Black and brown boys. How I find out about these things, I research, I read, I talk to people, I talk to researchers, and most importantly, I've even spoken to children. I've even asked them to tell me what took place that led up to this process of you being asked to leave the classroom, those children who can really tell their story, I've had an opportunity to do that.
Killins Stewart: That's so exciting, our work and the work that you did in the fellowship is really grounded in the voice of families. And you bring in the voice of children themselves and really understanding the story from their perspective. But often what we hear, we can't do anything about because so much is about a person's whole community, whole family, multiple experiences. So how did you develop a strategy and a team or to advance a strategy, and really be open to all that you might hear from families?
Glover: Well, I'll tell you, I hate to say this, but I'm going to, most of the time I am flying this plane as I build it, because I am being introduced to so many other pieces to this puzzle. Yes, I did have to reach out to some players in this space within New York, even on a national level, and I received some encouraging words, some information that would help me to develop the appropriate collaborative relationships within the state of New York. But talking to the families, finding out who are all the different villagers that they're interacting with, because it really does take a village for a child and for a family.
Glover: And when they began to share, well, I have to go to this agency. I have to talk to this person. I started putting these pieces together, and I realized those are the people I need to speak to. And this is what I'd start out the conversation with. Did you know that this family or this child also interact with this agency? What can we do collectively to start supporting them in this work rather than having them disperse their energy and spread themselves so thin and so wide, what can we do to help them? Those are some of the places that I started. And I can tell you, once you open up that door and you start asking questions, it's like you become this magnet for information. People want to help, they really do. Some people just don't know where to begin. I say, you start with the family.
Killins Stewart: It's great to hear you talk about paying attention to the energy of the family, because often other providers are not as connected and may not be connected to the voice of the families, and bringing that idea that we should be working together. So you mentioned people, programs and structures, that this really isn't solo work, that once you get information, a part of what you've taken upon yourself is sharing that information, listening to the family, so that a range of opportunities and barriers are removed. Can you talk about any collaborations you have or specific policies you've worked on to increase opportunity and remove barriers for families?
Glover: Absolutely. I can talk about things that are still in the works. And the reason I say that is because, once I saw these horrific numbers back in 2015, the first thing I wanted to do was develop a policy. I started talking to policy people, and I started having conversations with other groups like National Black Child Development Institute. I started having questions and conversations. What I discovered, there were several groups, not necessarily in New York, wanting to develop policies, but I started looking at some of those spaces where policies were being developed and found out that policies didn't always work to the advantage of those Black and brown children.
Glover: Because if you expel a child or in school suspension and you make them feel that they are different in the classroom, which is most damaging, staying in the classroom and feeling left out or not being in the classroom and not being exposed to any the information? I thought they both were bad. That was my opinion. And so I backed up on the policy piece, and I went really hard on the awareness piece, because what I've discovered is that people on a hold, regardless of what position they hold within a state, within an organization, they're good at the core of their being, they're good.
Glover: And once you share real information, data, stories, and they can see the light, they want to engage in whatever that work is. I recall this one time I had a team of individuals. They were diverse. I had several different groups, health, business. They were all part of this group of individuals understanding expulsion, suspension for the first time. And they were appalled to see those numbers. So what we did, we traveled around the state of New York, interacting with business leaders, parents, civic groups, educators, we did 11 trips, educating those different groups on what was happening with our children.
Glover: There wasn't one person who stood up and said, "I can't believe we're doing this in this day and age to our children." They all were engaged. They all wanted to do something and they wanted to do something fast. So, we started looking at expulsion and suspension, a lot of other people, once they knew what was happening, started looking at expulsion and suspension. We were about to take another trip down that lane of expulsion, suspension. It's like a part two or part three, because what we realized along the way was that it was that village concept that we needed to wrap our arms around. We needed to think about all of the players in the life of a child. What we discovered was that, what happens outside of the classroom plays a huge role in what happens within the classroom. Those were some of the things that we learned along the way.
Killins Stewart: How has your leadership approach and style ... You've given us some hint you've talked about beginning thinking policy was the answer, but then shifting and thinking, "Maybe we don't have enough awareness." You went to awareness, and now you're saying, "The group of people who need to be aware is much broader than just people in early learning programs." So how has your leadership style adapted and changed? Have you gone down this pathway of really trying to increase opportunities for Black and Native American children?
Glover: Well, I can tell you, one thing that I learned was patience. I'm still learning patience. This is indeed a journey. I'm also learning to be a very active listener because when I do that, they in turn return the favor. When I listen to what they have to say, they could be family, they could be a state partner, they could be a provider, they could be whomever. When I listen to them, then they will listen to what I have to say.
Glover: I also learned, as a leader, you don't always have to be the one in front, you can lead from behind. I've also learned that it is so important to learn all about the issue before trying to solve the issue, and bringing all the right players to the table. I learned as a leader, it is essential that those who are going to be impacted by the practice or the policy, they must be at the table, not as someone as just a source, but as co-creators of solutions.
Killins Stewart: Yeah. Fannie, a lot of times that idea of wanting to know as much as we can about the issue stalls leaders. So they don't want to take any action at all. I've heard you describe an iterative process. I learn a little and I move a little more, I learn a little and I move a little more. So, tell me about that. What do you do when you feel like you hit a wall, and how do you get started even when you think you don't know all you need to know?
Glover: Well, sometimes I do hit a wall, and when I do, I pause, I look at the situation and I go back to the vision. And my vision is to seeing every child, especially our Black and brown children, tribal communities, that they also have access to their God given right to high early learning. In that space, I find time to center myself, and I center, what should those next steps look like? Who are the players? Who are the influencers? Because sometime I shouldn't be the messenger. And I'm okay with that, because my vision says that all children, especially our Black and brown children have access. So, I'm okay if someone else is the messenger.
Killins Stewart: What advice would you give another state leader who is wanting to really create opportunity to listen, often state leaders don't feel like they get time to listen. Everybody's so busy these days. What advice would you give another leader who said, "I really want to center and be inclusive of children and families that are marginalized?"
Glover: You have to make it a priority. I can tell you this, for me, what I've learned is that it is so easy to get swallowed up in the, for lack of a better term, craziness, because you're running to this meeting, you're running to that meeting. What's the most important thing? If the work that we are doing is supposed to make a difference in the lives of those children, and I keep going back to the Black and brown because that's my focus now. If that's the goal, then if I miss that meeting, will that distract from those Black and brown children achieving their goals? If not, can someone else go to that meeting?
Glover: I think sometimes we get so wrapped up in making a name for ourselves and we get so wrapped up in trying to be everything to everyone that we sometimes forget the essential, the most important person. And that's those littlest citizens who can't always speak up for themselves. As a leader, what is my role in this space right now? Maybe it isn't for me to do that. Maybe I need to focus on something else that will support the mission. When we are mission driven, man, that makes us so powerful.
Killins Stewart: As you think about the horizon and what's going to happen soon, I really have two questions. One, what's something that you're building on when you think about work since 2015, can you give me a couple of examples of either policies or practices or things you started that you think really led to making the difference in the place we are right now, but then how does that set you up for what you see on the future horizon?
Glover: Rome wasn't built in a day, and the situation that we currently find ourselves in wasn't either. One of the projects that we developed, it was Leading with Racial Equity, and the dollars I was able to find. I said, I'll take this and I'll grow it by planting seeds, and how we plant the seeds, we received a small grant. And with those grant dollars, we asked every person, every role within the birth to five space from state head, researchers, providers, everyone in this space, we invite you to come and play with us for two years. And our goal is at the end of this two years, we desire that you see the work that you do differently, because you'll be using race equity lenses.
Glover: And some of the comments, the evaluation that have come out of this group has just been totally phenomenal. I'll tell you what, another thing that I learned from the fellowship of BUILD, we have diverse researchers and evaluators, that was done intentionally, because we know that biases can show up anywhere, because we all have them. The whole process is based on, what can you do with what you've learned back in the work that you do on a day to day basis? There are so many lights being turned on, and I love that quote that once a man has expanded, it can never go back to its original dimension. And that is exactly what's happening. These are seeds that we've planted and they're springing up.
Killins Stewart: Yeah, Fannie. A lot of leaders that I talked to want to do what you described, I want diverse researchers, I want diverse facilitators, I want diverse teachers, but they don't quite get there. Can you tell us one or two things you did to get to the space where you could say, not only are we doing this work to lead for equity and increase opportunity, but we're doing it with a group of people who have a different perspective.
Glover: What I did, I started with the influencers, and I didn't make sharp, drastic moves at first, because sometimes when you do things like that, it can frighten people. So I started with small incremental steps. And the next thing that I did, I actually asked to be part of the interview process when individuals were being interviewed for a role in evaluating and that sort of thing. I asked the right questions. I asked, "How diverse are you? And how many diverse projects have you actually engaged in?"
Glover: So I asked those type of questions and I'm pleased to say that no one was offended. They answered the questions, and they were even gracious enough to say, "I'm sorry, we wouldn't be providing you with the work that you'd want done at this time." So, I appreciated that, and I asked more questions, and I have to be honest, my dream was to have a diverse group of individuals interacting with our cohort. But in my opinion, what actually happened, exceeded my expectation. People were kind, what I was especially pleased about, people wanted to help. Once I asked the right questions, then responses were coming back like, "I should have thought of that. What can we do to support what you're doing? Have you thought about this person?"
Glover: It has started something beautiful happening, in my opinion. I'm not saying it wasn't happening all along in New York, because I can't say I'm the lone ranger and I'm doing this all by myself or anything like that. But what I can say is, I'm seeing some beautiful things happening in New York. It could be because my eyes are now opening even more so, but I can honestly say that it wasn't as tough as I thought it was going to be. Sometimes we just have to ask.
Killins Stewart: Well, it sounds like you applied your concept and growth around patients, and then you connected with influencers and other concept you've mentioned along the way, and used those influencers to let you in the room where the decisions were being made. So you could ask those questions, and understanding that wasn't going to happen overnight and that it was going to take multiple conversations, was a critical part of your path. Give me one thing you see on the horizon as we're wrapping up, as you think about New York and you center those Black and Native American children that you talked about, what's one hope you have for them in the near term?
Glover: I see New York looking at all of our children through the lenses of a village, and early education will not be off alone by itself. That it will be part of this bigger picture that children engages in every day. I personally, I'm envisioning that business person, that business leader saying, "Wow, did we put enough money in early education? Oh, I know a community that deserve these type of services. What can we do to further this mission?" I am so excited when I hear someone in a meeting speak up and says, "Are we using equity lenses or someone coming back to me from a meeting that I wasn't in and saying, 'Oh my God, you would've loved this meeting. This is what we did today. This is what we talked about.'"
Glover: People are excited of talking about this stuff. And I think it's because they just didn't know, like at one point, I didn't know. But now we do, we know better, we do better. Right?
Killins Stewart: We do better, we do better. Thank you so much Fannie for being with us today and sharing the story in your state. I want to thank all of you for joining us. If you've gained insight from today's episode, let us know by leaving a comment or giving us a rating or sharing it with your colleagues.
Critical Connections, Leading for Equity is a podcast of the BUILD Initiative. It is produced by LWC Studios. Producers are Kandice Cole, Paulina Velasco, and mixed by Selena de la Cruz. BUILD Initiative partners with state leaders to promote equitable high quality child and family serving systems that result in young children thriving and learning. To learn more about BUILD's work, visit our website at Buildinitiative.org. I am Dr. Sherri Killins Stewart. Thank you for listening.
CITATION:
Killins Stewart, Sherri, host. “Building Networks Responsive to Family Voice.” Critical Connections, BUILD Initiative, September 6, 2022, www.buildinitiative.org.